Curse

id0l · Sep 19, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Hi Guruians, I was bored this afternoon and decided to come up with a little formula for deciphering just *what* Flurry does. Alot of people tend to overlook Flurry because of it's decreased damage. I mean, why use Flurry when you can use Frenzy (or Tiger's Fury) for no damage debuff (and the same increase of attack speed)? Of course you take double damage though...or lose all non-attack skills...but who cares right, tanks are tanks!

Well here ya go, and I have even numbered the steps for you:

NOTE: All mathematics used were based off of the 1.33/second swing time of a sword or axe. You could, however, replace this with 1.75/second swing time with a hammer, or refires/second with a bow, and get similiar results.

...First, we derive the damage over time for 5 seconds of normal attacks...

#1
5 / 1.33 = 3.759~ (swings in 5 seconds)

#2
3.759~ x 20* = 75.188 (damage output over 5 seconds)

...Now for damage over time for the 5 seconds under Flurry...

#3
5 / .8778 = 5.696~ (swings in 5 seconds)

#4
5.696~ x 15** = 85.441 (damage output over 5 seconds)

~ Indicates a long continuation of numbers.

* This number can be substituted for one on your choosing, i.e. try to pick one closest to your estimated damage per swing.

** This number is 75% of the first (or if you picked your own number, use 75% of it); in other words - you are dealing 25% less damage (obviously, as you are under Flurry).

Note: .8778 is 66% of 1.33; in other words - swing time under Flurry is .8778~ seconds per swing.

Now for a little old school algebra...and you thought what they taught you in school would never serve any real world use!

75.188
------
100

=

85.441
-----
x

x = 113.636~ (your damage output % under Flurry vs. normal)

So, after 5 seconds of Flurry, you have done approximately 113% damage over time as you would without.

Want more proof? Let's try using a 50 dmg baseline for avg. damage/swing. It comes down to this:

Normal: 3.759~ x 50 = 187.96~
Flurry: 5.696~ x 37.5 = 213.60~

187.96 damage vs. 213.60 damage over 5 secs. Need I go on?

Fine...

187.96
-------
100

=

213.60
------
x

x = 113.64~

Hmm...virtually identical increase in damage over time as the first set of numbers.

Basically, as you can see, there is an advantage to Flurry that many people do not realize. I too often seeing it being passed off as a crappy skill as compared to Frenzy, Tiger's Fury, etc., when it is obvious here that it not only provides increases in attack speed, increased adrenaline gain, AND increased damage over time, but it does so without any negative consequences (Frenzy - take double damage, Tiger's Fury - disables non attack skills for 5 seconds, etc.). However, it has a slightly shorter run-time than Frenzy (8 secs vs. 5) and Tiger's Fury (only if your Beast Mastery is equal or higher than 6, I believe).

Sure, you're still going to eke out a little more damage using Frenzy/Tigers Fury for the same 5 second duration. But maybe not safely. As said before you still get a 13% increase in damage over time versus normal, plus a 33% increase in adrenaline gain. What's not to like? Combine it all with a zealous haft/hilt, and you're golden.

Did I forget to mention that even just 5 seconds of Flurry is almost the perfect amount of time to charge up your adrenaline for spiking some of our favorite axe skills? And even if not, -zap-, right back into Flurry.

Do the pros outweigh the cons? To me they do. Then again, I'm not saying Flurry > Frenzy > Tiger's Fury, or anything to that nature. Just explaining the facts...

Go ahead and discuss, I know you want to. Though please keep it civilized and mature, as this is not a "skill 'a' is better than skill 'b'" topic.

Note: If I made any mathematical errors, please let me know, and I will correct.

Racthoh · Sep 19, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Good to know I'm not wasting a spot on my tab for Flurry. As far as I can tell, the bonus damage granted by attack skills isn't affected by the 25% less damage. So that 33% faster adrenaline gain means I'm charging Galrath and Final more often and dishing out the extra damage from those a lot.

Nice work.

Deathlord · Sep 19, 2005, 10:31 PM // 22:31

I'm not exactly a wiz at numbers so I didn't look over the formula in exact detail, but the effects make me smile. I've used Flurry for a majority of my playing experience and have pretty much known it provided an overall benefit, I just didn't how much it helped me by in number form. Anyway, good work.

Frezak_bloodbath · Sep 21, 2005, 11:41 AM // 11:41

I always preferred Flurry because i got extra fighting speed and no seriously negative effects: with an extra 10dmg for conjure flame, and it charges quite fast A Galrath's slash, and i couldnt use frenzy, cause i'm an E/W.. Which isnt very tough..

White Designs · Sep 23, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Just saying that you do slightly more damage with Flurry doesn't make it any less bad.

The fact is that Flurry gives you much less damage than Frenzy, and a good warrior doesn't need to worry much about the double damage downside.

Whether or not its better than Tiger's doesn't really matter to me because that skill sucks on a Warrior.

id0l · Sep 23, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

Just saying that you do slightly more damage with Flurry doesn't make it any less bad.

Ah, I'd like and explanation how increased damage, and increased adrenaline, without pitfalls is considered "bad."

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

The fact is that Flurry gives you much less damage than Frenzy, and a good warrior doesn't need to worry much about the double damage downside.

I never said it gave you more damage then Frenzy; in fact I said you get more damage using it vs. Flurry.

Explain what you consider a "good warrior", please. Because as far as taking damage is concerned, that all depends on who the other team is targeting, and not your l33t w4rr10r sk1llz. And it's really easy to kill a warrior using Frenzy, an Air Spiker could probably kill you in about 2-3 seconds. Not to mention any other decent caster.

And where did I mention in this guide that this was a strict PvP tutorial on Flurry? Sure, I MAY opt to use Frenzy in a PvP scenario, but it sure as hell would never be in my skill bar if I'm playing PvE.

These are all moot points, taken more out of opinion than fact. Saying "Flurry is bad" just because you don't prefer using it is just another example of the bias found in this game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

Whether or not its better than Tiger's doesn't really matter to me because that skill sucks on a Warrior.

Yet again more bias, opinion, and one-sidedness, without factual bases. Try to keep the criticism to some level of intelligence besides "This skill sucks, blah blah blah." I must ask you to re-read some of the important parts of my post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

Sure, you're still going to eke out a little more damage using Frenzy/Tigers Fury for the same 5 second duration...Then again, I'm not saying Flurry > Frenzy > Tiger's Fury, or anything to that nature.

Go ahead and discuss, I know you want to. Though please keep it civilized and mature, as this is not a "skill 'a' is better than skill 'b'" topic.

Tarot Ribos · Sep 23, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Uh... okay. 20 damage per swing is a bit... wrong. You forgot to factor in strength, not to mention levels above 12 in weapon mastery. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say an average of 25 damage per swing. This could add up. Second, don't swords and axes strike every 1.25 seconds? I'm fairly sure of that...

*whips out calculator*

4 strikes normally in five seconds gets you roughly 100 damage.

Under flurry, you get 6 strikes in 5 seconds, at only an average of 18.75 damage per strike. Which means you've got 112.5 damage over that time.

5 energy is being spent every 5 seconds for an extra half-attack. That doesn't sound very efficient.

On a primary warrior, who gets 2/3 of an energy per second, that only gets you 3.333333 energy per five seconds. Which means you're losing 1.666666667 energy. So you will run out.

Meanwhile, what about Wild Blow? Seeking Blade (for a Sword warrior, which is what I'm working off of)? Now, I may forget how much a critical hit strikes for, but I know it goes for max damage of weapon plus something... and it ends stances. Not bad. Seeking Blade? It strikes for over 16 more damage every 4 seconds (as I'll assume you've got more than 12 Swordsmanship), which is undeniably better than the 12.5 extra flurry gets you.

I will make concessions on the adrenal boost Flurry gives you. But Seeking Blade can also do even more damage AND cause bleeding. Flurry has its uses, but only in certain builds, like heavy adrenaline-based ones or IW Mesmers. Otherwise, it may provide a benefit... but not as great as other skills do.

arredondo · Sep 23, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

^^^ So you concede that Flurry is decent in certain setups, which is all the OP is showing. Heavy adrenal builds as you mention definitely improve with this since they can use a subclass other than Ranger to get an attack speed enhancement without the damage penalty of Frenzy. For a net cost of 1.6 energy every five seconds, that appears to be well worth it to include Flurry on select builds. And the occassional encounter with counter skills is never a reason to say a tactic isn't worth using. Stance breaking isn't exactly running out of control, especially when only 1 of the 6 classes stops it.

Nice info id0l. I love reading useful stuff like this.

id0l · Sep 24, 2005, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos

Uh... okay. 20 damage per swing is a bit... wrong. You forgot to factor in strength, not to mention levels above 12 in weapon mastery. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say an average of 25 damage per swing. This could add up. Second, don't swords and axes strike every 1.25 seconds? I'm fairly sure of that...

Nope, swords and axes have a 1.33 second swing time. Using 1.25 in your math kind of screwed things up for you, if you are looking for realistic damage numbers. And 20 seconds isn't "wrong," it was a general base damage number; like I said you can stick in ANY number and get the same basic increase in damage over time (you obviously didn't try this). And strength is irrelevant in this whole discussion...the armor penetration strength provides is only applied during [attack] skills. And in this case Flurry comes out on top still, because you can spam [adrenaline] attacks more often. And the sword/axe/hammer mastery level you are at has nothing to do with anything here, either. We are simply using average damage '*' (20 in this case) as a base number for mathematical purposes. How you derive '*' depends on many things; your mastery level, your weapon damage, etc. But none of those things specifically have any affect on the formula itself - only on average damage '*'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos

5 energy is being spent every 5 seconds for an extra half-attack. That doesn't sound very efficient.

I never said it was efficient, or that you need to run it constantly...note that I did say however, that using a zealous mod for your sword/axe would make you "golden." Maybe I should have just recommended the zealous mod if you want to run it continuously (as I do). I make up the 5 energy very quickly. In fact, I never run out of energy (very rarely that I do). By the time Flurry ends I have regained, usually, 6 energy or so (purely from Flurry)...if I have been attacking the entire time. This is with a zealous axe haft of course. So figure about 8 energy gained during 5 seconds, after the initial cost of Flurry.

Over 5 seconds:

Spend 5e = Gain 8e.

...considering 1 energy regen from the zealous mod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos

Meanwhile, what about Wild Blow? Seeking Blade (for a Sword warrior, which is what I'm working off of)? Now, I may forget how much a critical hit strikes for, but I know it goes for max damage of weapon plus something... and it ends stances. Not bad. Seeking Blade? It strikes for over 16 more damage every 4 seconds (as I'll assume you've got more than 12 Swordsmanship), which is undeniably better than the 12.5 extra flurry gets you.

Ah, you are getting weapon-specific now, I'm trying to stay away from that as this is a general guide. Saying "this skill might be better with swords" isn't really constructive to someone that uses axes, or hammers.

Anyhow, you would have to ask yourself this: is spending 5 energy [every 4 seconds] worth it for an extra 3 damage (every 4 seconds...) vs. 5 energy [every 5 seconds] for increased damage (over base) plus increased adrenaline? I think not. With the increased attack speed and adrenaline, you are able to spam adrenaline-based skills at a 44%ish rate faster than without Flurry. Therefore the 3 extra damage per 4 seconds is negated heavily vs. the spammability of adrenaline-based attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos

I will make concessions on the adrenal boost Flurry gives you. But Seeking Blade can also do even more damage AND cause bleeding. Flurry has its uses, but only in certain builds, like heavy adrenaline-based ones or IW Mesmers. Otherwise, it may provide a benefit... but not as great as other skills do.

Seeking blade is alright, but see above post. However, I will agree with you only if the fact is this: your build has NO adrenaline based attacks. Which is a very small percentage amongst the warrior population.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Nice info id0l. I love reading useful stuff like this.

Thanks arr, and I appreciate Tarot's contribution to this as well...even though it may be flawed a little.

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos

5 energy is being spent every 5 seconds for an extra half-attack. That doesn't sound very efficient.

On a primary warrior, who gets 2/3 of an energy per second, that only gets you 3.333333 energy per five seconds. Which means you're losing 1.666666667 energy. So you will run out.

use a zealous sword or axe and you gain a net of 1 energy after end of flurry + your energy regen (which isn't that fast but it doesn't matter flurry pays for itself).

entropy · Sep 24, 2005, 04:00 AM // 04:00

you could use it but cause its pve and not pvp its fine but i would rather use cyclone axe

White Designs · Sep 24, 2005, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

Ah, I'd like and explanation how increased damage, and increased adrenaline, without pitfalls is considered "bad."

Its bad since another skill is better than it in nearly every situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

Explain what you consider a "good warrior", please. Because as far as taking damage is concerned, that all depends on who the other team is targeting, and not your l33t w4rr10r sk1llz. And it's really easy to kill a warrior using Frenzy, an Air Spiker could probably kill you in about 2-3 seconds. Not to mention any other decent caster.

Its been posted many times that Warriors generally aren't targetted. A good Air Spike team, if they target you, will kill you whether or not you have Frenzy on. A single air spiker has no chance of killing you since if he tried to gank you 1on1 you'd get easy warning by the first hit and switch (or by the Surge icon).

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

And where did I mention in this guide that this was a strict PvP tutorial on Flurry? Sure, I MAY opt to use Frenzy in a PvP scenario, but it sure as hell would never be in my skill bar if I'm playing PvE.

You don't need Frenzy or Flurry in PvE. It's easy, so why bother arguing about it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

Yet again more bias, opinion, and one-sidedness, without factual bases. Try to keep the criticism to some level of intelligence besides "This skill sucks, blah blah blah." I must ask you to re-read some of the important parts of my post:

Its been beaten to death about how good or bad Tiger's Fury is. If you want to learn about it, read some of those gigantic threads. I don't want to explain it again.

id0l · Sep 24, 2005, 12:43 PM // 12:43

White, all you are doing is thrusting your opinion on people - once AGAIN I must repeat myself when I say this thread isn't about "skill 'A' is better than skill 'B'," and besides, you have no facts at all to back yourself up - all you say is "this is bad, this sucks, another skill is better, why use this, this won't happen." Just because you think something sucks/is bad/etc. doesn't mean it really does. Either provide some evidence to your bias or stop slandering the skill just because you opt not to use it. Maybe it's not good for your specific build. But it works great with others.

If you have some form of constructive information to share, by all means do so. So you don't want to use it...good for you. I'm not trying to tell you to use it over something else. You are entitled to that decision.

White Designs · Sep 24, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Why shouldn't it be about Skill A vs. Skill B? They are both stances, both non-elite, both unlinked and can't be stacked. So use one or the other. And if one is so much better nearly always, the other one logically sucks.

I gave facts, specifically writing about the air ele thing and targetting. I don't know what you take that to be.

Venus · Sep 24, 2005, 03:14 PM // 15:14

I was looking for somthing like this, now I can put flurry back on my skill bar without any doubts.

id0l · Sep 24, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread in a constructive way.

Tarot Ribos · Sep 25, 2005, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Okay. So my math was slightly off... but the results seem to be the same. Flurry gets you an extra half-swing of damage, give or take a point for five energy. If you're running a decent Zealous mod or multiple adrenaline skills (as one skill alone does not merit the use of another), then Flurry is a decent choice. Or, as mentioned, in a IW mesmer build.

But when looking at sheer DPS, other skills can and usually are more useful. That's really what I was getting at with my post. Sorry if that didn't come across properly... that's what happens when one is tired. I just wish Flurry lasted longer... five seconds is really kind of pitiful. I'd even be happy with 8.

id0l · Sep 25, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Oh, I agree with you. But the goodness of the skill (for me, anyway) isn't just an increase of damage over time, but the super-charge of adrenaline it gives. These two bonus's wrapped up in one skill definatly makes it worth it's place on my skillbar. I really only see any speed enhancing skill as worthwhile when you have 2 or more adrenal skills on your skillbar (as far as a warrior goes); or if you are an interrupt ranger or something similiar (IW Mesmer included). My 3 attack skills are adrenaline-based (and I hate Soothing Images). Of course, I myself would only run any speed-enhancing skill with either a zealous or max vampiric mod for your weapon, to get full benefit. And that's exactly what I do.

My weapon of choice is my +14% damage in stance Zealous Chaos Axe of Fortitude. This gives me great damage under both Flurry and Frenzy. I love hitting adrenal spikes under Flurry and hitting for 150-200+ damage very, very quickly (~150 against level 24-28s, ~200+ vs. humans and level 20 creatures). Vigorous Spirit/Live Vicariously is also very sweet using a skill such as this (hp on hit). Though I prefer Vig. Spirit because it doesn't cost my any regen, which is a no-no for a Zealous weapon.

LifeInfusion · Sep 25, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Flurry + judge's insight/conjure ...

id0l · Sep 30, 2005, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Edited. Skill not changed.